How to Sleep Deeper: Sleep Hygiene Strategies for Men Over 50 | Dr. Melissa Milanak

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:00:00]:
So I think the biggest key to know is that sleep is something that our body is designed to do naturally, and it's not going to allow you to never sleep again. So just because you have a night where you have difficulty falling asleep, I mean, yeah, you might feel tired during the day, but that part still works. And so I think that a lot of people will have a really stressful night, or maybe they didn't sleep well because they have to get up early for their flight, or they're in a season where there's a lot going on, family or work. The good thing to remember is sleep is not hopeless. It doesn't matter if you haven't slept. I've had people that haven't slept well for decades, and within a few weeks, we get them sleeping through the night.

Mike Capuzzi [00:00:35]:
This is Unstoppable After 50, the podcast for men who refuse to slow down. Each week, I share smart strategies and expert insights to help you stay strong, healthy, and unstoppable in the second half of life. Welcome back to Unstoppable After 50. This week's guest is Dr. Melissa Milanak, a licensed clinical psychologist and sleep and stress researcher. Dr. Melissa has decades of experience with helping men get better sleep. This is an important topic.

Mike Capuzzi [00:01:04]:
It's this thing that affects all of us as we get older, which is a reduction in sleep quality. So stay tuned for an eye-opening, no pun intended, conversation with Dr. Melanik. Dr. Melissa Melanik, welcome to the show.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:01:19]:
Thank you for having me.

Mike Capuzzi [00:01:21]:
Melissa, I was looking forward to having you on today because first of all, you're my first guest where we are focusing on sleep. You know, muscle building, cardio, diet—you know—those those have all been interviews I've had, and I've been looking for the right person to bring on to talk about this very important topic because it's one of those things that I think a lot of guys kind of don't think about seriously. You know, they'll do the diet, they'll do the working out and all that, but their sleep is. Kind of, you know, all whacked out. So I appreciate you coming on today and really sharing with my audience some of the experience you have from your literally 2+ decades. So, Dr. Melissa, when we jump in here, I wanted to start off with kind of a question I have, because I read, I read varying things. What does the current research show now, as far as what guys should be looking at as far as duration of sleep? What is, you know, how many hours of sleep should we be getting?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:02:23]:
An interesting piece with how much sleep is that, what does society tell us? It says that number 8. 8 is an average. So the average US male shoe size right now is a 10.5. I bet you for your listeners, there are many with a larger and smaller foot. And it's the same thing that 8 is an average. So there are some people that need more than that and they barely afford themselves 8 hours in their schedule. And there are a lot of people that need less. And they'll wake up and feel amazing until they look at the clock and then immediately feel tired because their brain said they should.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:02:54]:
There's actually certain things that you can do to determine what your ideal sleep need is, and it does change over the course of our lives. So the older we get, the less sleep we need, which is the terrible joke the universe plays on us, 'cause we're younger and we can stay up all night, and now as we hit more maturity, we think about staying up late and we feel tired. But we will see a change over time. A lot of people do need less sleep, especially when they hit over 50. But that 8 hours truly is an average. I have some people still getting 7 to 8 hours or even more, but I'd say if you're getting around that 7-hour range, that's the typical average for people.

Mike Capuzzi [00:03:31]:
So I was always able to get 7 to 8 hours, you know, no problem. And I just turned 60 a few months ago. The switch didn't occur then. It's occurred, I don't know, maybe a year or so ago where I am definitely getting less sleep. It's not because I'm not trying. I go to bed consistently. I'm getting up earlier, which is starting to— it's driving my wife nuts. We hear that 8 hours, we hear, and, and I've heard you on other interviews talk about the importance, and I know we're gonna talk about that too, of how sleep aids in recovery and when you're, you know, working out and all how important it is mentally.

Mike Capuzzi [00:04:05]:
Now I'm just like, I'm just like, oh my gosh, I'm not getting my 8 hours. I'm not getting my 8 hours. I mean, how does it— how does a guy know that 5 hours is fine or 10 hours is fine? Like what, what is that? look like? How does he know?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:04:17]:
What happens is, as we get older, our sleep changes. And so we know that when we're sleeping, it's really important for, as we talked about, your body to heal and recover and for your brain to heal and recover. The older we get, we actually spend less time in what's deep sleep, that slow-wave sleep where our body heals and recovers. And so that's why no matter how much time we're spending in bed, we can only get so much. And so for a lot of people, that's why regardless of how much sleep you're getting, You're going to see a change in if you're feeling tired or fatigued or how quickly you heal. Figuring out the ideal amount, if I take all the jargon out of it, the ideal is that we want to see somebody falling asleep within 10 to 15 minutes, sleeping straight through the night minus a bladder break, and waking up and feeling rested. The reason I say that is the typical person, once they hit their late 20s, a lot of people wake up once a night to use the restroom. But if you wake up, you're back to sleep within about 5 minutes, you're not up 20, 30, 40 minutes, no harm, no foul.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:05:14]:
If you're up 2, 3, 4 times, we need to pay attention to that. One of the myths is people think, well, the older I get, I'm— my bladder's just gonna wake me up multiple times. That's a whole separate conversation we should have for gentlemen over 50 when we wanna look at certain levels and rates and prostate and things like that that are actually waking us up, and also risk for sleep apnea that we should definitely talk about. In terms of figuring out the ideal, Usually what we will say for people is figure out how much sleep you are on average getting on a typical night. So if you take your 7 days and maybe you're getting 5 hours here and 7 hours here and this, don't take a range, but take the average number. And then for 1 week, we're gonna limit ourselves to a window that's that amount. So if you're getting 6 hours a night, you're gonna spend 7 days with a consistent bedtime and wake time of that window. And then we're gonna see what happens in those 7 days.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:06:04]:
That means we're not napping during the day, 'cause we're not depleting our sleep to be able to sleep at night. And we're retraining the body that you go to bed at midnight and you wake up at 6:00 AM or whatever window you set. And then within those 7 days, if you're sleeping straight through the night and you wake up and you're still tired, now we know we need to expand that window. If you're sleeping through the night and you're not, then you've hit that sweet spot.

Mike Capuzzi [00:06:26]:
Well, that's interesting. That kind of gives— makes me feel a little bit better, 'cause I don't feel tired during the day. But, you know, what's happening, and I'm sure what I'm about to ask or share you've heard of, and, you know, I'll be interested to hear your feedback, is all of a sudden I'm now tracking, right? Never did that for decades. And now, of course, I've got to track it, right? I've got to, you know, track everything else. And I got to track my sleep, which has happened over the last year. And, you know, it's crazy. The first thing I look at in the morning is my sleep score.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:06:58]:
Wow.

Mike Capuzzi [00:06:59]:
And now, right now, the sleep score is dictating whether or not I've got a good night's sleep, not how I feel, but that whatever that number is.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:07:06]:
Or it impacts how you feel, not to interrupt you, but you feel like you're rested and then your sleep score says you're not. And now you're like, well, am I rested? And then it makes you question yourself.

Mike Capuzzi [00:07:14]:
So as a professional, tell me, good, bad, don't wear, wear. How does a professional like yourself, you know, talk about these wearables? Quick pause. If you're not getting my Unstoppable After 50 Playbook, you're missing out. Every week I send a 1-page playbook with my key interview takeaways and simple actions to help you stay strong and in control. Get it free each week at unstoppableafter50.com. Now back to the show.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:07:42]:
Wearables is an interesting thing. So I tend, when I make my recommendations and such, I like to do it based on what's the research that's out there. I'm a data-driven person. I, there are lots of anecdotes, but I want to give people the information based on what what we know when taking the emotion and the sales pitch out of it. From a wearable standpoint, for the typical individual, I will usually say it's a really great thing. We think of Hawthorne effect. You observe something, you can impact it. So if I told all of your listeners for the next week to write a food diary of everything that they ate, they probably would find that they're eating healthier because they want to write down the apple and not the box of cookies.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:08:19]:
And so when we're observing our sleep and we're looking at the trackers, it can give us good information in terms of, Oh, why did I sleep well last night? Well, how many drinks did I have? How late did I stay up? What did I eat? Did I have my workout that day? Could I not shut my brain off? And so in a lot of ways, the tracking is helpful. The thing is that, as you said, there are so many different devices that are out there right now. Some are more accurate than others. And so even without getting into which ones, which we can talk about, but the key with the wearables is recognizing that you want to be looking at patterns. Versus just a specific night. So when you want those that are going to be tracking your sleep, for instance, you could say the quantity to go back to the previous question. Well, I can't tell you that every single person needs two hours of REM sleep a night, or every single person needs an hour and a half because it depends on what your sleep is. What we know is that overall for your night, ideally we'd like to see twenty to twenty-five percent of your sleep.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:09:19]:
spent in deep sleep with the body healing and repairing. And we'd like to see 20 to 25% spent in REM sleep, which is where the brain heals and repairs. But the amount of sleep you're getting will determine what that percentage is or what that actual number or quantity is. So you want to be using the devices for those reasons. Also, you want the devices that are specifically going to look at health metrics. And the 2 things that we first look at from behavioral sleep medicine perspective is going to be your oxygen level. Now, with different devices, it'll say VO2 max, SpO2, O2, like all the different pieces. But the key is that when we're sleeping, and depending on what position we're sleeping in and different stages of sleep— I won't get into all of that today— but for instance, when we're dreaming, our body becomes paralyzed so we don't act out our dreams.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:10:08]:
If you've ever seen the dog chasing the squirrel, and it's really cute when the dog does it, but it's not cute when we do it. We don't want to hurt the person sleeping next to us or throw ourselves out of bed, so our body becomes paralyzed. But that paralysis is not that our muscles are tight and tense, it's that they lose all muscle tone. And when we're trying to breathe, I have my neck muscles, air is flowing. Well, when the neck muscles lose muscle tone, they're going to collapse, which can put pressure on the airway, which can cause obstruction— obstructive sleep apnea. So there are a lot of people that experience sleep apnea episodes during REM sleep.

Mike Capuzzi [00:10:39]:
Hmm.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:10:39]:
And it may not be that they completely stop breathing, but their oxygen levels could drop. And so we want to be tracking and seeing, are you getting below that 90 to 95% O2 rate? Is that putting more stress and strain on the heart? Is that causing oxygen issues for the brain and all these other pieces? And so that's why with the wearables, you want the devices that are going to be able to look at your O2 levels, that are going to be able to look at your heart rate variability. Because when that number gets smaller, that shows us that there's more stress and strain on the body. And the body can't relax. Here's a key that a lot of people don't realize is that sleep is considered a vulnerable state. Our body is not going to let us sleep and rest if it thinks that there's a threat, because when we're sleeping, we're not immediately on the ready. So if our muscles are tight and tense because we didn't stretch or relax after our workout, if our heart is beating faster, maybe it's from the caffeine. If there's all these different things that are happening with our bodies, then our body can't let us rest.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:11:34]:
And that can impact our sleep. So the wearables, in general, are a great thing, but we want to look at the patterns. If you're usually getting about 18% of deep sleep a night, and now it drops to 12%, or it goes up to 24%, looking at those pattern changes can give us a lot more information, even if the device isn't 100% accurate.

Mike Capuzzi [00:11:53]:
Wow, there is so much to unpack there. You derailed all my questions. I'm going to just kind of go freeform here for a moment. So I want to kind of leapfrog over, even though it's critically important, about sleep hygiene, going to bed, making your bedroom, you know, dark and cool and all that. I'm just going to kind of leap past that, and hopefully, you know, most guys know that, and kind of go to a couple things you mentioned. Is there a way, Dr. Melissa, where I can impact the— somehow increase my REM sleep Or do something to increase my REM sleep or my deep sleep? Is there something I can do, or is it just truly just go to sleep and see what happens?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:12:36]:
There are a number of things that we can do. And what a lot of people don't realize is that becoming an efficient sleeper is actually the best thing that you can do. What I mean by that is there are so many people that are thinking, okay, well, it takes me an hour to fall asleep, so I need to go to bed earlier so that I can have that time to fall asleep. But what happens is the more time we're spending in bed, we only have so much sleepiness that we can actually fill that evening with. So you go to the buffet and you have this huge plate because your eyes are bigger than your stomach. There's only so much that can fit in your stomach. And so what happens is actually spending more time in bed doesn't mean that we're going to get more, more sleep. So what happens is when we sleep, we go through a process and it's made up of stages of sleep that make up cycles of sleep.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:13:25]:
And we need all of those pieces. So when we're first falling asleep, stage 1 sleep, that's where people experience that myoclonic jerk, that feeling of falling, that phrase falling asleep. I always joke and say that's when you get in trouble with your significant other because they caught you dozing off. But that's that stage 1. Stage 2 is a transition that takes us back and forth between body and brain healing and repairing itself. And then we get to stage 3. This is what's actually called deep sleep. A lot of people confuse and think that deep sleep is when they're dreaming, but they're actually separate things.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:13:57]:
So deep sleep is where your body heals and repairs itself. And from a survival standpoint, we will typically see deep sleep being prioritized. So if you say you're the person that needs 8 hours of sleep, but you're only giving yourself 5 or 6 hours, you will see that you're spending more time in deep sleep because the body is going to heal and repair first. And then that's why you wake up and you feel relatively rested because your body healed and you don't realize that you cheated your brain out of what it needed. So then the second half of the night, if we think of it as a balance, then they— then it shifts and we spend a lot more time in REM sleep. So that's where the brain is healing and repairing itself, everything from emotional balance to control anger, to be resilient, to experience happiness, and where the majority of dreaming is occurring. Because when we're dreaming, that's when our brain is taking everything that's happened throughout the day, sorting through what to keep and what to get rid of and what to be able to hold on to. so that we can retrieve it weeks and months and years later.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:14:55]:
So if we want to get quality sleep, one, quality over quantity, we need to get the full amount, but our body needs to know what it has to work with. So how to do that? Step one is we need to have a consistent wake time 7 days a week, as best as we can. Because if you go to bed at 10 o'clock, if you go to bed at midnight, but you're always waking up at 6:00 AM, Your body's going to know, okay, I have 5 hours to work with tonight, and so it can properly allocate to body repair and brain repair to give you the best ROI. It'd be the same thing with your financial advisor where you give them your money and they put— they allocate to stocks, bonds, ETFs to figure out the best ROI. Our body and brain needs to know what it has to work with, but when we're waking up at all different times, it doesn't know how much time it has, so it can't optimize healing and repairing. So when we have that set wake time, That's the first step to increase our deep sleep and our REM sleep, because now our body and brain knows what it has to work with so it can allocate optimally. On top of that, I know I'm giving you a lot of information, so feel free to stop if there's questions. Then what we wanna look at is we wanna get the full amount of sleep, because did you ever play Chutes and Ladders as a kid where you have to go back to the beginning? Well, guess what happens every time you wake up? You start the process over.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:16:13]:
So if I'm waking up 2, 3, 4 times in the middle of the night, and I have to keep starting at the beginning, and going through deep sleep and going through deep sleep, I'm cheating myself out of REM sleep. So that's why we want to make sure that we're reducing the wake-ups. And some of that is paying attention to the water intake and things that we're having later at night. Some of that is going to be paying attention to the sleeping and the breathing, because for a lot of sleep apnea, since it happens more in REM sleep, People will sleep really well for the first few hours, and then they'll wake up consistently every hour and a half to 2 hours when they hit REM sleep, because the body says, no, no, I want you to breathe. And it'll prioritize that over the brain repair. And a lot of people think it's the bladder waking them up, but it's actually the snoring and the breathing. So we can— and there are alternatives if people don't want to do a CPAP. We can still help you.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:17:03]:
So there's kind of— there's the duration. That's where the consistency comes in.

Mike Capuzzi [00:17:07]:
Yeah.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:17:07]:
And the falling asleep piece is also really important. If you eat dinner at 7 every night, you get hungry around 6:30 because your body knows to expect food. I know that not everybody can go to bed at the same time every night. We have social events, so you want to stay up and watch the sporting event. We have travel, there's life. But when we are in general going to bed around the same time every night, then that helps our body to know when to prepare for sleep, when the brain should shut off. And that can help us to optimize again the deep sleep and REM sleep. So the duration, reducing the wake-ups, obviously the more physically active we are, the more deep sleep we'll need for our body to heal and repair.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:17:44]:
But there's a lot of these other things that people don't realize that can actually help you to optimize the deep sleep and the REM sleep.

Mike Capuzzi [00:17:51]:
What about, I'm gonna, you know, kind of take a cheat code here. So I don't wanna talk about any kind of pharmaceuticals or over-the-counter stuff. What about natural ways, Dr. Melissa, whether it's supplements, different teas, foods, whatever you might recommend? What are some things that— and there's so much out there. This is one question I have asked several guests, and they all give me different answers as to try this supplement or try this or try that. You know, what do you find to be useful, especially for guys that are, you know, in the second half of life?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:18:25]:
So I always have to give the disclaimer that I'm not the prescribing provider. I don't know an individual's health. And so we have to be cautious about some of that because there are certain things that could typically help that maybe don't for another reason. Or I'm sure you've had people talk about, oh, you want to take your vitamin C, but if you take too much, you can blow out the kidney and liver, right? So we want to be cautious of not just what it is, but how we're using it. When I'm talking to men over 50, there are a few things that we have keys that we talk about. So let's kind of focus on that piece. One is going to be to be paying attention to iron levels for men. Actually, iron and testosterone are very tightly connected.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:19:06]:
And what we see is that for a man, if they're getting an hour less sleep at night than they need, it can actually age them 11 years of testosterone. So, what I mean by that, you're 59, your body's functioning as a 70-year-old. You're 49, your body's functioning as a 60-year-old. And so, that's if you need 7 hours a night but you're only getting 6. And so what's happening there is that's where sleep can play a role in all different things with the hormones and the supplements and the people are using. We want to be cautious. So the reason I bring up iron is when we see those testosterone drops, the impact on iron, it's not just the iron in the body but also the ferritin, the— I'll call them the protein, the little carts that carry the iron throughout the body. Because if you have enough iron but you don't have the ferritin, it can't get where it needs to go.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:19:53]:
So checking that, that can play a role in restless leg and periodic limb movements and a lot of different jerking and movements that gentlemen experience at a certain stage. So we want to be checking those supplementations, but we want to be cautious when we're taking it. Another one that— and I will say with anything that's over-the-counter, melatonins, magnesiums, those things, because these products are not FDA regulated, you want to make sure that you're using a brand that does Third-party testing. There's really interesting research out there looking at these brands and how they have too little or too much. So I just want to give that general caveat. I will say I have a lot of gentlemen that start to use melatonin. Here's the thing with melatonin: it what happens is it's not a sedative or a hypnotic. It's not designed to knock you out and put you to sleep.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:20:40]:
You're not supposed to take it 20 to 30 minutes before you go to bed. It adjusts your circadian rhythm of when your body feels awake, alert, and sleepy. So usually doctors will prescribe it to be taken at least 1 to 2 hours before bedtime. And the reason we're seeing so many melatonin deficiencies now, yes, it does deplete the older we get, but it's because of our devices. So what used to happen is as the sun would set, it would actually— that darkness, that triggers this little part of the brain. It's called the suprachiasmatic nucleus. We'll call it the sleep switch. Says it's light out, be awake.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:21:12]:
It's dark out, be asleep. And when it would start to get dark about 4 to 6 hours before bed, that's when our body spikes in melatonin. And then when we're taking that supplement 1 to 2 hours beforehand, it helps to increase that to help with the sleepiness. That's why it's really bad to take in the middle of the night when you wake up, because now you're shifting your entire circadian rhythm by hours and hours and starting it over at 3 AM. So we want to be conscious of the timing. I will say I see a lot of gentlemen also taking advantage of magnesium. Another one, check the FDA in terms of the— well, not the third-party testing for it, but I will say that I have a lot of folks using those supplements. The trick here is which kind.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:21:53]:
There are about 8 or 9 different types that are out there right now, and most people are taking magnesium citrate because that's the most commonly available. You may know this, but that's the core component of a stool softener, so you'll be regular but not regularly sleeping. So most of the time, I have a lot of gentlemen that are taking magnesium malate, Think M, muscles, because that plays a role with muscle cramping and such. Or looking at magnesium glycinate, think G, go to sleep. So to help— so there's a lot of just the nuances of the hows and the whens versus just the key piece of, you know, I try to get people— ideally, we'd like to see them using things that are naturally occurring, as you're talking about, before getting into the chemicals and the NyQuils and those types of things.

Mike Capuzzi [00:22:36]:
Yeah.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:22:37]:
But it really depends on what their body is needing and doing to how we tie some of those supplements in. If they are using supplements from an exercise standpoint, we do recommend that those are taken earlier in the day because things like the caffeine and the stimulants and such and those triggers, that's going to be separate from creatine. Have you spoken about creatine on here with your listeners?

Mike Capuzzi [00:22:58]:
No, not in detail.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:22:59]:
Creatine. Okay. And again, as I said, I always have to be cautious because I'm not the prescribing provider. They need to check with their doctors. But creatine is one that a lot of— I have a lot of gentlemen over 50 are now using to help supplement with their workouts. And up to the, you know, 2.5 to 5 milligrams, there is some research now showing that if people are taking a slightly higher dose closer to the 10 milligrams, that it can help with some of the brain fog and the impacts that people have when they are sleep deprived. So I have a lot of gentlemen that are using that with, like, with jet lag and travel. It's not something that you want to use every day and just say, well, I can get by on less sleep and take creatine.

Mike Capuzzi [00:23:35]:
Right.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:23:35]:
But I am seeing that supplement being used more frequently to help with some of that for people that do have sometimes the sleep deprivation as well, because of the way that it helps with the hydration in the cells.

Mike Capuzzi [00:23:46]:
Interesting. Very interesting. Melissa, I'm just sitting here thinking, I've already thought like 2 more episodes. But because of time, and I still have some things I want to kind of COVID I'm going to go through 3 scenarios. And I'm going to ask you to kind of go through them Kind of quickly, and I know they each deserve, but as I was preparing for this, there's 3 areas that I could see. Sometimes it's myself. Now, I don't typically ever have a problem falling asleep, but I want to talk about, you know, any suggestions for guys that have a— that are challenged to fall asleep. Then the— what was the other one? The next one was, uh, that wake up in the middle of the night, right? So maybe that— I don't know, that too famous 2, 3 AM thing.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:24:28]:
Yeah.

Mike Capuzzi [00:24:29]:
And then the third would be the, the guy where I'm at now, which is I'm now getting like this morning I got up at 5:30. I sure as heck didn't wanna get up at 5:30. I would've preferred to get up at 7:30 or 7. Can we go through each of those and maybe just offer some suggestions or what I should research more or what people should look into? So if a guy is having a challenge where he's going to bed and then laying there, what do you recommend?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:24:52]:
A couple quick things. So I'm gonna, I'll rapid fire at you and then you tell me what you want more detail in. So with the difficulty falling asleep, there are usually a number of things. If it's the shutting the brain off, it's— for a lot of people, it's because we haven't given our brain the chance to process throughout the day. You wouldn't take a casserole out of the oven and immediately put it in the fridge. You need to let it cool down. And so what we need to do is actually give our brain the chance to wind down. So about 10 to 15 minutes before bedtime, I want you to take a notepad and a pen.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:25:20]:
On the right-hand side, I want you to write your to-do list for the next day. Bank, dry cleaners, whatever you need to order, all those things. Because you're going to lay in bed and think and plan, and now your brain won't shut off because it's trying to remember what it has to do. And on the left-hand side of the page, you're going to do a brain dump of everything else running through your brain. But you're going to set a timer for 3 to 5 minutes because the first minute's going to be high level, and then you're going to climb in bed and still think. And so what we're going to do is when we're forcing ourselves to write, we're not creating worries. What we're doing is we're emptying out our brain just like we used to have to Download things off the computer to have space on the hard drive. You put it on the nightstand, you get in bed.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:25:55]:
If the brain is still running and racing, you get back out of bed and write more, and then back in bed. Just like when you're training a dog and you put it outside to learn to go outside, you're teaching your brain that it has to go out of bed, that it doesn't get to go in bed. Also with that, we don't have wind-down routines as adults. With kids, we do. Wash your face, brush your teeth, read a story, do X, Y, and Z. As adults, our only trigger is our phone.

Mike Capuzzi [00:26:17]:
Right.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:26:17]:
And now we're in bed and we're doom scrolling, and now the light is keeping our brain awake and our brain is confused. The bed should be reserved for sleep and romantic activity, and that is it. Anything else, your brain's confused of when to be awake. You can read before bed, but do it outside of bed. So if you're having trouble falling asleep, retrain your body and brain that the bed is where we sleep. It's going to be the same thing when you wake up in the middle of the night. If you're laying in bed for longer than 10 to 15 minutes and you know you're not going to fall back to sleep, get out of bed, do something boring, empty the dishwasher, fold the laundry, do something that'll make the other people in the house happy, and then get back in bed only when you feel tired. We need to strengthen that connection that if I said to you, I'm gonna go to the movies, what snack am I most likely gonna get? What immediately comes to mind?

Mike Capuzzi [00:27:03]:
Movies, popcorn.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:27:04]:
We want your brain to say bed, sleep, not stress, process, worry, my office. So for those folks that are having trouble falling asleep or waking up and they're laying in bed solving the world's problems, That's what happens is because your brain thinks that the couch is where you sleep, and then you wake up 2 hours later and get in bed, and now you're thinking. So we need to retrain ourselves of what we do when we're in our bed and that we don't sleep anywhere else. There's a lot more we can do in terms of adjustments of like, what are we eating and what are, you know, all these other pieces. But for the fast and quick, shut the brain off, have the routine. PMR is a phenomenal one, progressive muscle relaxation, because our body holds tension all day. driving, typing, exercise, all those pieces. When you overly tighten the muscle and quickly release it, it will elongate the muscle and helps relieve the tension.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:27:51]:
That focus on the body helps the brain to realize that the tension is going down and it will let you rest better. So that's a great thing to do for wind down if you can't fall asleep, and having a consistent bedtime as best you can so the brain knows when to do it. So that's the kind of the fall asleep. When you wake up in the middle of the night, The other trick is be cautious what you do. A lot of people don't get enough water, for instance, during the day, and then they wake up in the middle of the night and they drink a glass of water. Well, now your body has learned that that's when it gets hydration. It will wake you up for water. So be cautious if that's when you think, if that's when you get your water, if that's when you're doing certain things that the brain thinks is important.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:28:28]:
It will keep waking you up to do those things. And if you're waking up multiple times, many times we need to shrink the window a little bit. Just like we would squeeze the air out of a Ziploc bag or defrag a computer. So if you find that you're up for 45 minutes every single night, go to bed 45 minutes later. And what you'll find is you're not waking up as much because now the sleep inertia— you have enough sleepiness to push you through that. That was why we didn't really get fully into the sleep window piece, but that's in my TED Talk, so you can watch that later. But that's the key of being able to— with that wake-up. And then the last thing you said about waking up Earlier.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:29:03]:
Well, this is the thing. If we think about what sleep is for, that cell growth, that regeneration, think about how much sleep a newborn gets versus a 6-month-old, a 2-year-old, a 10-year-old. We get to a certain stage in our life and we're not having the growth spurts anymore, and so our body doesn't need as much sleep. So different than food, and we look at the senior specials and the portion sizes that shift. So if we've always gone to bed at the same time and we used to sleep till 7 or 8, now we're waking up at 5 or 6, Sometimes that just means that our body's needs have shifted. So if we want to sleep longer, we might need to go to bed a little bit later. And if we want to get more sleep and really extend that window, then we need to do things that make our body require more sleep. So that's where it's going to be— the being more physically active or doing other things that then our body needs that rest.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:29:50]:
And that's why we want to reduce the number of naps that we're doing during the day. Because if your mom ever said, don't eat a snack, you'll ruin your dinner, when you take the nap during the day, you're depleting your sleepiness, which means you don't need to sleep as much at night. Now, power naps are still good. You can do your 20 to 30 minutes, but we don't have time to get into all the nap stuff right now.

Mike Capuzzi [00:30:09]:
Very interesting. Again, you're right. There's so much to unpack there. And you and I can talk about maybe a follow-up, and we can go into a little more detail. For today, Dr. Melissa, I know you are writing a book, which I can't wait to hear more about. It's due out next year. But can you talk a little bit about that? So just tease the audience.

Mike Capuzzi [00:30:29]:
And then also share, you mentioned your TEDx talk. Where can my audience learn more about you and all the great work you're doing?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:30:36]:
Sure. So the book is called Sleep for Success: Your Guide to Better Rest, Optimal Performance, and a Thriving Career. And so the point is to go through all of the different aspects that people have questions about, but let's distill it based on what's the real research behind it? What do people need to know? But not just what do we need to know, but what can we do about it? So the whole book is practical. Every single chapter— there's certain chapters that everybody should read, but there might be certain things that apply to you, whether it's pets or kids or career or jet lag or exercise and performance, relationships. And every single chapter has some myths and an associated tip that you can start using tonight. My whole goal is that I want individuals to be able to hear this and not feel more stressed, but instead feel empowered that they can access that secret superpower that I always— that we have of sleep, to be able to start doing something that they can practically start doing that night, and then it doesn't disrupt life so much that it feels impossible.

Mike Capuzzi [00:31:35]:
That's awesome.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:31:36]:
And then how people can get in touch with me, I obviously have my website, which is my name, melissamelanik.com. I have many free downloads that people can access by listening to the podcast. So they— I have my Sleep Well guides with tips and tricks. The TEDx is on there. There's a video library. With over 200 videos and tips. And if anybody fills out the free consultation form and says that they heard this episode today, then they get a free consultation as well.

Mike Capuzzi [00:32:00]:
Well, that's quite generous of you, so thank you very much. Do you mind if I slip in a quick question before we go to my trifecta?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:32:06]:
Of course, of course.

Mike Capuzzi [00:32:08]:
A lot of times when, whether it's men or women, when they, when they start getting— sleep becomes poor, they start stressing out. You just mentioned stress, and, you know, any just quick suggestions? And again, I'm asking you to do quick stuff, but like Where going to bed actually becomes stressful, right? And I know you—

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:32:26]:
Yeah, you dread your bed.

Mike Capuzzi [00:32:27]:
And am I gonna fall asleep tonight? Exactly, exactly. Right. So just any quick tips or advice there?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:32:33]:
So I think the biggest key to know is that sleep is something that our body is designed to do naturally, and it's not gonna allow you to never sleep again. So just because you have a night where you have difficulty falling— I mean, yeah, you might feel tired during the day, But that part still works. And so I think that a lot of people will have a really stressful night, or maybe they didn't sleep well because they have to get up early for their flight, or they're in a season where there's a lot going on, family or work. The good thing to remember is sleep is not hopeless. It doesn't matter if you haven't slept. I've had people that haven't slept well for decades, and within a few weeks we get them sleeping through the night. And so I think that's the key also, that it doesn't mean that you also have to medicate yourself to do it. Yes, there are some people that there's reason, right? Like sometimes you get sick and you can't just let your immune system work.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:33:19]:
You need the antibiotic, right? There are some people that need medication. I'm not saying that it's not the answer for anyone, but for a lot of people, there are certain things that we can adjust and tweak, and you truly can take control back over your sleep.

Mike Capuzzi [00:33:32]:
Well, Dr. Melissa, this has been amazing. And again, just so much insight and just knowledge and wisdom.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:33:39]:
We haven't even talked about caffeine or alcohol or any of the jet lag and travel and exercise.

Mike Capuzzi [00:33:45]:
Well, obviously, it's probably gonna be a lot that's gonna be in your book too. But, but for today, I'm gonna wrap up with my Unstoppable After 50 trifecta. And I'm gonna make the first 2 questions sort of sleep related. So what's one hard truth that men need to hear about their sleep after 50?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:34:05]:
I think the hard truth is that sleep is going to change. And so the sleep is shrinking. So you are going to find that you are needing a little bit less and that that restorative stage for the body to heal and repair is reducing. So we actually need to make sure that we're prioritizing it, but paying attention to it. So the snoring isn't— no, isn't just bothersome. It could be, as we see, as men, especially once they get over the age of 50, the incidence of sleep apnea significantly increases. So we have to start paying attention to those wake-ups and to what's happening and considering Getting that sleep study, you don't want to go into the lab, it's fine. You can do it at home in your house, and it doesn't mean you have to wear a CPAP.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:34:47]:
But I think that realizing that the sleep does change and the habits that we see can mean different things is a hard truth that once it's faced, men can be much healthier, much more productive, and actually we can see the impacts on longevity.

Mike Capuzzi [00:35:03]:
What about something that guys are doing? This is probably— there's probably a ton of things, but what's one thing guys are doing that's So we haven't spent a lot of time talking about alcohol and caffeine.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:35:20]:
And what I will say is this, I'm not saying that you won't have a glass of wine with dinner or have your old-fashioned or your nightcap, but we do see that alcohol starts to impact significantly more, and alcohol can reduce REM sleep. I think the key is that I have a lot of gentlemen, especially if they're traveling and life circumstances, Where they're saying, well, but it's great. But, you know, I was having trouble falling asleep and I have a drink and I go to sleep. The hard truth, sedation is not sleep. So just because you're unconscious doesn't mean that you're getting restful sleep. And so you just wanna be cautious about how you're using that and the impact that it can have on negatively impacting the amount of deep sleep and REM sleep that you get.

Mike Capuzzi [00:35:59]:
And finally, what's something, one thing, Dr. Melissa, that a guy can do this week to improve his sleep?

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:36:08]:
I would say when we talk about that sleep routine, about doing the best that we can about having a bit more of a consistent sleep schedule, because then our body can start to optimize it. And I get it, maybe we've hit retirement and we've earned it and we don't have to have the schedule. But if we can be a bit more routine with, especially starting with that consistent wake time, if you're sleeping well at night, it doesn't matter that you're getting up at 6:00 AM because you're rested. You don't have to sleep Mm-hmm. Till 9. And, you know, if we think about, you know, adding into that consistency of when we're doing the things that matter, that 3-2-1 of not having a lot of heavy meals and such about 3 hours before bed and starting to reduce what our brain is doing and even turning off our screens a little bit sooner, at least an hour before we get to sleep. But I think that the one thing they can start doing this week would be that consistent scheduling as best as can be so the body can optimize for body and brain repair.

Mike Capuzzi [00:37:01]:
Well, Dr. Melissa, this has been awesome. And we will definitely— you and I will talk and maybe, maybe a little closer to when your book is getting ready to launch, because that's always helpful. And again, thank you for all the wisdom and advice you shared today.

Dr. Melissa Milanak [00:37:14]:
Thank you for having me. I will say sweet dreams to you and to your listeners and hope to be helpful anytime I can.

Mike Capuzzi [00:37:20]:
I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Dr. Melissa. And more importantly, I hope you took some specific actionable advice that you can put to use in your own life and sleep. What she shared is so critical for all of us. So make sure you check out our resources, check out our videos, and get better sleep. And if you like what I'm doing here with Unstoppable After 50, please make sure you like and subscribe to the show. Go check out the YouTube channel. Appreciate you subscribing there.

Mike Capuzzi [00:37:51]:
And also make sure you check out unstoppableafter50.com and sign up for my weekly playbook. Every week I send a recap to my group of men who've asked for it, a PDF that's designed to be printed and saved, and it's a recap of that previous week's episode. So check out unstoppableafter50.com.